1

Topic: The biggest lie about Iraq

There were a lot of lies told to the American people about Iraq.  But I think the biggest one wasn't WMD, any purported terrorism connections or even that Saddam was seeking a nuclear weapon.

The grandpoppy of them all:

"We liberated X million people from a brutal regime"

Yeah, you heard me.  We didn't liberate anything or anyone. 

1.)The Arab world hates most Americans and mostly everything it stands for.  I mean if a country tried to occupy you and tell you what freedom meant, you'd probably hate them too.  If they made sanctions against your nations, invaded your countries, supported your enemies (Israel) and had anti-thetical cultural, religious and economic values then you'd probably hate America too.

A Gallup poll shows that most Iraqis by a decisive majority do not view us as liberators but as occupiers:

http://media.gallup.com/GPTB/goverPubli/20040428_5.gif

2. We never sold this war on the idea of liberating Iraqis.  This was not a war about liberation, it was a war about weapons of mass destruction and terrorism... or words of mass deception and cronyism, if you prefer.  It wasn't about liberation when Saddam tortured people for all those years, when we had inspections, when we left people to die in a false revolt after Gulf War I or when a CIA funded coup landed Saddam in power.  Saddam became evil after we needed a puppet to blame, when he wouldn't play ball anymore. 

3. We don't apply, nor can we or should we, our foreign policy as liberating people.  If we did, we'd be in Cuba, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and half the rest of the world spreading democracy on the tip of a gun.  Obviously, this is impractical.  So why Saddam?  Beats me, go ask George Bush. 

There is clear lack of historical precedent for this kind of action.  More often than not, we have been outwardly friendly or even helped put most of these regimes where they are from Central America all the way back to the Middle East.

4. To use an effect to justify a cause is usually morally unacceptable, and sometimes considered a logical fallacy.  For example, hitting someone in the gut and then justifying it by saying they were going to do it to you.  Otherwise known as pre-emptive warfare, another Republi-logic fallacy. (More on that later)

The ends don't justify the means, they never have and they never will.  Going to war based off of lies is immoral, period the end.

5. The Iraqi people are not free. 

They are occupied against their collective will. 

Their government is a flimsy, interim government appointed (grasp this concept, conservatives) by American officials.  They are not elected, the Iraqi people are not free therefore. 

Iraq is in chaos and disorder, which threatens freedom itself by ensuring rights for nobody.

When the Iraqi people are free, if ever,  it will be because they've made their own stable, legitimate and powerful government and elected their own officials.  Long after we are no longer occupying them and chaos has left their land.

This outcome might be impossible due to their culture, nobody can say for sure.  Beyond this, the Iraqi people might not want democracy at all, they might just want a religious or somewhat more fascist form of government.  That is what real democracy is: self-determination. 

If we pick their government for them, they are not free.  You cannot liberate people by killing them, occupying their country or telling them what to do.  We didn't bring them freedom, we brought them the chance for freedom. 

Unfortunately that was tarnished by the lies we used to do it, the oil we really did it for, the allies we really did it for and the blatant incompetence (lack of allies, planning, manpower) that the postwar government was ran under.

2

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

grandpoppy.

  mee

[img]http://www.buckleshop.com/images/q190e.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.kinomarkt.ch/BilderFlaggen/Hfc092.jpg[/img]

3

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

the simple fact of the matter is that when a group of people are ready to revolt, then they will revolt. history has proven this time and time again.....hense the lack of monarchies in europe...

http://www.southern.com/southern/band/CURSI/pics/cursive_index.jpg[/img]

4

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

hey cat u dont have to act like conservatives are idiots and i like that fake chart u made.

5

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

hey cat u dont have to act like conservatives are idiots and i like that fake chart u made.

Lol, but you are idiots! Duh!

On a side note: "Fake chart"?

6

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

That chart is from Gallup, which a simple right clicking reveals.

7

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

Well since this is the trash heap, I'll just assume that that was a nonsensical post and try not to waste everyone's time...well....not too much of it  roll

8

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

Typical right-wing rubbish reply tongue

9

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

I got a new book...
Let Freedom Ring by Sean Hannity.....I know you are a left-wing, democrat, but it has been a good read so far, check it out.....

10

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

I have heard of it.  Anyone that writes a book equating liberalism with terrorism is to be taken with a grain of salt.

Titled:

Deliver Us from Evil
(Defeating Terrorism, Despotism, and Liberalism)

11

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

George bush is a filthy nigger and deserves to be molested and beaten with a giant stick untill his liver pops out of his knob and he is made to cook it for 30 seconds then eat it with a bit of slimy slug crap smeared on it for added pleasure, and during all this sumone has to be shoving a whole pinapple up his ass and adding vinegar to the cut up flesh in his anal cavity to sting every now and then

[img]http://www.popmatters.com/music/top100songs/images/16guns-n-roses.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.ebaumsworld.com/signs/sign4.jpg[/img]

12

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

He is certainly filthy.

13

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

*puts a special sticker of the year award on catbert and hands him a free see saw set*

[img]http://www.popmatters.com/music/top100songs/images/16guns-n-roses.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.ebaumsworld.com/signs/sign4.jpg[/img]

14

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

1.)The Arab world hates most Americans and mostly everything it stands for.  I mean if a country tried to occupy you and tell you what freedom meant, you'd probably hate them too.  If they made sanctions against your nations, invaded your countries, supported your enemies (Israel) and had anti-thetical cultural, religious and economic values then you'd probably hate America too.

The Arab community has always had disdain for cultures other than their own.....  In fact the Islamic faith praises the murder of non-muslims saying: "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

They call it the religion of Peace......I really don't see why.

2. We never sold this war on the idea of liberating Iraqis.  This was not a war about liberation, it was a war about weapons off mass destruction and terrorism... or words of mass deception and cronyism, if you prefer.  It wasn't about liberation when Saddam tortured people for all those years, when we had inspections, when we left people to die in a false revolt after Gulf War I or when a CIA funded coup landed Saddam in power.  Saddam became evil after we needed a puppet to blame, when he wouldn't play ball anymore.

I hate to bring this up....but uh....most of what you speak of occured during the Clinton administration.

3. We don't apply, nor can we or should we, our foreign policy as liberating people.  If we did, we'd be in Cuba, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and half the rest of the world spreading democracy on the tip of a gun.  Obviously, this is impractical.  So why Saddam?  Beats me, go ask George Bush. 

There is clear lack of historical precedent for this kind of action.  More often than not, we have been outwardly friendly or even helped put most of these regimes where they are from Central America all the way back to the Middle East.

He was the flavor of the month (doesn't mean it didn't need to be done eventually anyway...).  I wish we could go into Cuba, North Vietnam etc. You are right, though, it is impractical.

4. To use an effect to justify a cause is usually morally unacceptable, and sometimes considered a logical fallacy.  For example, hitting someone in the gut and then justifying it by saying they were going to do it to you.  Otherwise known as pre-emptive warfare, another Republi-logic fallacy. (More on that later)

The ends don't justify the means, they never have and they never will.  Going to war based off of lies is immoral, period the end.

Here we go with morals again....

The WMD's were proven to be a case of bad intelligence...not lies....bad intelligence......he's just trying to make the CIA screwup look good by trying to find a new reason.  If someone says the someone is gonna kick your ass at 12:00 and you walk up and punch them in the gut at 12:00 only to find out they had no intention to fight you, I'm sure you'd be making up every excuse in the world to make it look like you had a reason to do it anyway.

5. The Iraqi people are not free. 

They are occupied against their collective will. 

Their government is a flimsy, interim government appointed (grasp this concept, conservatives) by American officials.  They are not elected, the Iraqi people are not free therefore. 

Iraq is in chaos and disorder, which threatens freedom itself by ensuring rights for nobody.

When the Iraqi people are free, if ever,  it will be because they've made their own stable, legitimate and powerful government and elected their own officials.  Long after we are no longer occupying them and chaos has left their land.

That's the point....appointed officials until they are stabilized and can vote for their own officials....

This outcome might be impossible due to their culture, nobody can say for sure.  Beyond this, the Iraqi people might not want democracy at all, they might just want a religious or somewhat more fascist form of government.  That is what real democracy is: self-determination. 

If we pick their government for them, they are not free.  You cannot liberate people by killing them, occupying their country or telling them what to do.  We didn't bring them freedom, we brought them the chance for freedom.

Beautiful words.  We brought them a chance for freedom.  That is exactly what we did and are trying to do.  We can't guarantee freedom, so a chance for it is the only thing we can give them.

Unfortunately that was tarnished by the lies we used to do it, the oil we really did it for, the allies we really did it for and the blatant incompetence (lack of allies, planning, manpower) that the postwar government was ran under.

I do agree that we did not plan this properly...at all....

The reason you state for us going to war (the oil) is actually a good reason to go to war...self preservation, IMO.....you scratch my back, I'll scratch your back. Hell, who wouldn't go for the "buy one, get one" deal we had here......

15

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

I guess I lied.....that post is kinda long and will take up bit of your time...
tongue

16

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

Most of your post seems to either get around answering my main conclusion (that you cannot justify the war in Iraq based off the so-called liberation argument) or stands in direct agreement with it. 

You do, for instance, agree the Arab world hates us.  You agree we applied the logic of "Saddam was evil" particularly to Saddam, citing him as a flavor of the month.   

To this end, I am not sure IF you are trying to justify the war with the so-called liberation argument. 

Please clarify your position, John Kerry Jr. tongue


Although I take issue with some of your reply:
First of all, blaming Clinton.

hate to bring this up....but uh....most of what you speak of occured during the Clinton administration.

Clinton did cite WMD, but that was in 1998.  They might have existed then.  Likely, they didn't.  But there is a key difference.  One I think Republicans might do well to learn to understand before they use this particularly inept reply:

Bill Clinton didn't start the Gulf War(s), the Bushes did.
Bill Clinton is not President at the current time, George W. Bush is.


Moving right along and secondly,

The WMD's were proven to be a case of bad intelligence...not lies....bad intelligence......he's just trying to make the CIA screwup look good by trying to find a new reason.world to make it look like you had a reason to do it anyway.

Bad Intel, lies, misleading comments.  At the end of the day this all means the same thing:

We went to war based on inaccurate information with no plans, no allies and people died and are dying now because of that arrogance..  As the commander in chief, this is Bush's responsibility under the burden of command.  This was his war, and will be remembered as such.

Blame the UN, blame Clinton or blame Congress... but at the end of the day one man decided to drop the bombs.
However, I do appreciate you admitting Bush is trying to change the reason we went to war smile

About the second part:

If someone says the someone is gonna kick your ass at 12:00 and you walk up and punch them in the gut at 12:00 only to find out they had no intention to fight you, I'm sure you'd be making up every excuse in the

One problem with this: Iraq never threatened to use WMD against us.  Another key problem is, they never had the capability to fight us or "kick our ass" so to speak.  They had no navy, a demoralized army and no real weapons programmes to speak of.  There was nothing they could do.  Iraq was absolutely nothing in the sense of an immediate threat to this nation.

The Kay Report only concluded a capability existed to research these weapons.  Well news for Dr. Kay and Dubya, a sixth grader with the right chemicals could make some of these crude-style weapons Iraq once had.  They also had a bad shelf life, assuming they are eventually found which is still exceedingly unlikely.

Then again I guess Saddam was going to give his non-existent nuclear material to the terrorists that he was never allied with and bring a "day of horror" to us the likes of which we've never seen.  Bush is an idiot.


You seem to agree the Iraqi people are not free, at least for now.  Therefore saying they are "liberated" would be inaccurate.  Using this as a justification for war would be further fallacy.

I find it unacceptable that the US military is engaged to a country on false premises with no post war plans, no allies and no real way to get out.  I find it equally unacceptable that the sole remaining justification for this war is the hope that someday Iraqis might have a free, peaceful and stable government. 

Good for them, Saddam wasn't our problem.  Dead American soldiers are our problem.  International alliances strained and tested are our problems.  Our credibility being gone and being hated in the world is our problem.  Lack of security in Iraq and an over-extended military are likewise our problems.  Terrorists running free in Iraq and outside of it, getting new recruits by the day with the perfect propaganda we provided them is our problem. 

Iraq's might-be-someday dream of self-determined government might never be realized.  Even if it is, the price was too high.  The mistruths were too  many and the damage was unacceptable.

If you find it morally acceptable that the US military is engaged for the benefit of a few oil companies, rich men and a more US-friendly regime over there, I pity you.  If you are willing to send men to their deaths for lies and smugly sit back hoping for cheaper oil, I pity you more.  If you think a dependence on Middle Eastern oil is our future and in our best interests and a war can be justified by stealing the assets of another country through an illegal and immoral war, I believe you have no excuse trying to defend this.

But the problem is gas prices are still soaring and oil is reaching record highs by the day.  Iraq is in turmoil and oil output is at half.  Only Halliburton benefitted from this.  I guess we didn't get cheaper gas after all.

I can't help but wonder if some CEO of a major energy company other than Halliburton is thinking:

"Surprise, surprise, George lied."

I guess I lied

No, but he did.

17

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

One problem with this: Iraq never threatened to use WMD against us. Another key problem is, they never had the capability to fight us or "kick our ass" so to speak. They had no navy, a demoralized army and no real weapons programmes to speak of. There was nothing they could do. Iraq was absolutely nothing in the sense of an immediate threat to this nation.

No Iraq couldn't have kicked our ass, but even a single WMD could have devastated us. What I was trying to say in that analogy was that you didn't know that the other person didn't have any intention of attacking you nor did you know what capabilities they had.  All you knew was what you were told.

-

I am for the war in Iraq, just to clarify this, but not for any reason other than we attempted to eliminate a threat.  Also, I know that anyone sitting in the same chair as "Dubya" when he was informed that Iraq, an enemy which has hated us since, at minimum, the 1990's, had the capability to destroy an entire city (which could destroy the U.S. as a nation....economy..dead, trade..dead, manufacturing...dead etc) I would have "moved heaven and earth" to extinguish that threat.  Don't blame the President for the CIA's mistake.  Hell...call me John Kerry, Jr.? He's the one addressing Congress to, at best, cut the CIA's budget, yet he and the rest of the liberal Democrat party are attacking Bush for bad information?

As far as your main point:
   The war in Iraq can't be justified by the liberation argument alone because that's not the reason we went to war with Iraq to begin with.  You can't go to war, find out your intel was bad, then just stop, that would have been worse for everyone.....half an angry army, plus chaos in Iraq.  Thus, we must stay the course and at least try to eliminate future threats to use by trying to help the people of Iraq and reforge the nation into an ally, but like I said the planning sucked and any true Muslim will never ally with us sincerely.

It's easy to sit back after a decision was made and criticize it, but try to see what was going through the President's mind when he was told that one of our greatest enemies had nuclear capabilities (regardless of the truth to that statement...he didn't know, so as far as his decision was concerned they DID have WMD's).

At the end of the day making a decision, and a good one based on intel, based on bad intelligence is a lot better than simply lying. George W. Bush is a good man- you can't blame him for this any more than I can blame Clinton for the Gulf War.....(Although I do feel a strong sense of disgust in the Clinton administration for not having prevented the 9/11 attacks......you know...turning down Sudan's offer to give us Osama bin Laden on a silver platter......(note: this was AFTER the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center by bin Laden...))

Also...something I caught on the history channel a while back....The Bible Codes....I personally have no use for them, but something interesting did come up....."Weapons of Mass Destruction, Moved, Syria" Kinda makes you wonder if the CIA's intel was actually bad or not....

18

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

I have already had a lengthy debate with you, otherwise I would join. And Catbert can handle this just fine. Go Bill!

19

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

No Iraq couldn't have kicked our ass, but even a single WMD could have devastated us. What I was trying to say in that analogy was that you didn't know that the other person didn't have any intention of attacking you nor did you know what capabilities they had.  All you knew was what you were told.

You don't go into a war blind, that is exactly the problem with pre-emptive warfare.  You goto war when you have to, not when you want to.  The problem with pre-emptive warfare is that you can never be sure, and you can't just blow someone/something up out of sheer paranoia.  That is no way to live your life, and it is no way to lead a nation.

In the prior analogy, the kid would probably be expelled.  It is time to expel Bush.


I am for the war in Iraq, just to clarify this, but not for any reason other than we attempted to eliminate a threat.  Also, I know that anyone sitting in the same chair as "Dubya" when he was informed that Iraq, an enemy which has hated us since, at minimum, the 1990's, had the capability to destroy an entire city (which could destroy the U.S. as a nation....economy..dead, trade..dead, manufacturing...dead etc) I would have "moved heaven and earth" to extinguish that threat.  Don't blame the President for the CIA's mistake.  Hell...call me John Kerry, Jr.? He's the one addressing Congress to, at best, cut the CIA's budget, yet he and the rest of the liberal Democrat party are attacking Bush for bad information?

You were for the war in Iraq or you still are?  Sort of hard to be in support of it after you figure out everything we went to war based on was completely wrong... but command your own swift boat,  I suppose tongue

I don't believe the CIA's estimate ever included that Saddam already had nuclear weaponry.  The worst guess was that he was a year away.  We knew we were far out of his missile range.  You are being melodramatic with the entire "Saddam destroying a city" rhetoric. 

At any rate, Bush is to be held responsible for a decision he made.  What he thought is ultimately irrelevant.  Whether he lied, exaggerated or was just intellectually not curious enough to follow up on the information and be completely sure is beyond me.  But any of those situations are still pretty irrelevant.

He went to war.  He was wrong.  People died and are dying because of that.  We spent billions on a war for pretty much no good reason at all.  The world has slipped farther into division and chaos, we have no credibility or time left.  And somewhere in the far outskirts of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border there is a laughing Osama bin Laden.  We have given him the perfect propaganda to use against us, and he got away with 9/11.

I don't call that clear leadership, I call it mission failure.

As far as your main point:
   

The war in Iraq can't be justified by the liberation argument alone because that's not the reason we went to war with Iraq to begin with.  You can't go to war, find out your intel was bad, then just stop, that would have been worse for everyone.....half an angry army, plus chaos in Iraq.  Thus, we must stay the course and at least try to eliminate future threats to use by trying to help the people of Iraq and reforge the nation into an ally, but like I said the planning sucked and any true Muslim will never ally with us sincerely.

Agreed, pretty much.

It's easy to sit back after a decision was made and criticize it, but try to see what was going through the President's mind when he was told that one of our greatest enemies had nuclear capabilities (regardless of the truth to that statement...he didn't know, so as far as his decision was concerned they DID have WMD's).

Yes it is, especially when people are dead over it.  You know its kind of a big 'oops' when 950+ American soldiers are dead over it, we have billions spent and we have yet to find even one particle of 'mass destruction', save some outdated and impotent sarin leftover from Saddam's war with Iran... material we likely gave him to begin with.

I won't spare criticism, the man made a bad decision to rush to war with no exit plan, few allies and not enough men apparently.  The reasons for that war were false, whether by his knowledge or not.  This is again the problem with pre-emption: You can't be sure. 

At the end of the day making a decision, and a good one based on intel, based on bad intelligence is a lot better than simply lying. George W. Bush is a good man- you can't blame him for this any more than I can blame Clinton for the Gulf War.....(Although I do feel a strong sense of disgust in the Clinton administration for not having prevented the 9/11 attacks......you know...turning down Sudan's offer to give us Osama bin Laden on a silver platter......(note: this was AFTER the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center by bin Laden...))

Clinton didn't make the decision to go into Iraq, Bush Jr. did.  That was the main point of that.  I can blame Bush for it and will because he is the commander in chief of the armed forces and he sent our soldiers to war. 

I'd rather not get into blaming a national tragedy on any administration, but I only want to remind everyone who was in office when it took place, who held no counter-terrorism meetings and basically ignored a August 6th PDB entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike America".

I doubt that even the CIA would be obtuse enough to allow hundreds of thousands of tons of WMD sneak over the boarder to Syria, or anywhere else for that matter. 

Or that the Syrians would take it and get away with hiding it for that long.  Seems like a long shot to me, at best.

20

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

God i hate democracy

21

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

Well worry not, America isn't a full direct democracy.  It is a constitutional republic, and partially democratic.

I think the founders actually feared the idea of a democracy more than just about anything else.

22

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

Still too close for my tastes. I read some opinions and views and just think... Damn, those nutjobs have the same power over electing people as I do...  And despite them probably thinking the same, I'm right and they're wrong.

23

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

Oh and of course Cat is right and you are wrong. But Bush will be re-elected so it doesn't matter... I need to get a gun.

24

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

Ballot or bullet, eh Lerris?:P

25

Re: The biggest lie about Iraq

... I need to get a gun.

Please do, and use it well! I would create a golden statue in your honor . . .