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Topic: Dear Catbert

I found the following on the "other board", which I cannot post on. I thought it fair for you to be able to defend yourself, if you choose not to, I will for you.

I was perusing the old board today and I noticed a disturbingly incorrect post by Catbert about why Bush should not be re-elected. It was riddled with false/uninformed statements, ridiculous propaganda, and worst of all, no one on that board seems to have the balls to call him on it. This of course begs the question of why I would post a rebuttal of my own on this board instead of the old board. Well, it's simple. I just don't care. However, reading it did give me an idea to spark a conversation here. That being said, I'll get on with the point.

First off, let's dispel the myths surrounding Bush's presidency:

Myth: Bush was not elected in the first place.
Truth: If he wasn't elected, he wouldn't be president. If you know anything about the way the president of this country gets elected, you know that the popular vote doesn't really count for squat. Never has, never will. So, that means the "He lost the popular vote" argument doesn't count for squat either. The next liberal argument says that he stole the election through a vast conspiracy. Of course, if there was ANY proof of this at all, he and alot of other people would be behind bars right now. (There goes argument number 2) The third and final liberal argument to credit this myth is that the Supreme Court pretty much hand picked him, since they put a stop to the recounts in Florida. Let's get one thing straight here, they put a stop to the recounts during the THIRD recount. That means that they counted the votes once and showed Bush winning, recounted them once and showed Bush winning, recounted them again and still showed him winning, then tried to recount the votes one last time, when the Supreme Court stepped in and put a stop to it. Why did they do this? 2 reasons: each recount still showed Bush winning, and by the third recount, the people doing the counting were told to "interpret" what the vote was "most likely" for. This is just plain illegal, and the Supreme Court had no choice but to put a stop to it. So, YES Bush was elected in 2000.

Myth: Bush is responsible for the recession.
Truth: The president has little to nothing to do with the economy. The only thing he can effectively do is set up programs to prevent deep recession and depression and return money from the budget to the people in hopes of revitalizing the economy. Now, the economy tanked before Bush even took office, so to blame him for that is just plain silly. However, he did give tax rebates, which prevented us from going into a full-blown depression. What did Clinton do at the end of his 2nd term when the economy tanked while he was still in power? Nothing. If you still want to blame a president for the economy, it makes (slightly) more sense to blame Clinton.

Myth: Bush hasn't done anything to fight the rising cost of healthcare.
Truth: He's done more than ANY president before him, by signing in the prescription care plan which allows any American citizen to have the government cover 20-60% of their prescription drug costs. He also fought to pass a reward system for health providers who set their prices on a person-by-person basis. This idea, however, was shot down.

Myth: Bush didn't do anything to prevent 911, therefore he is responsible.
Truth: He, and everyone else, did everything they could. It just wasn't enough. It could not have been prevented with the level of intelligence we had at the time. Now, this is by no means my opinion. This is the opinion reached by the 911 commission. It's in the report.

Now, let's get into the myths about Iraq.
Myth: Iraq did not have the capabilities to produce WMD's.
Truth: Well, there is some truth in that. Though Saddam had the programs in place to produce nuclear arms, he did not have the nuclear material necessary to finish them. However, according to the Senate Intelligence committee, Saddam was in negotiations with Niger to purchase Yellow Cake. For those of you who don't know, Yellow Cake is weapons grade nuclear material. (I believe it's Uranium, but I can never seem to remember definitively.) This was backed up by intelligence reports from 14 different agencies, worldwide. Now, according to military intelligence reports, with the programs in place, it would have taken less than one year for Iraq to develope nuclear strike capabilities. So maybe they didn't have it YET, but they would have within a year. That's where the "pre-emptive strike" policy comes in. And it was certainly justified.

Myth: There where no terrorists in Iraq prior to the invasion.
Truth: Sorry liberals, but both the senate intelligence committee and the 911 commission have reported that Iraq did indeed have "exceedingly strong ties" to terrorist organizations including, but not limited to, Al Qaeda. What did they mean by this? Well, according to the 60+ pages of information released on the subject, Saddam was not only directly funding Terrorist operations, but had active cell training camps throughout Iraq.

Myth: We went into Iraq for the oil.
Truth: Where's the oil? I don't see any Iraqi oil. Do you? We did not go into Iraq for the oil. Bush kissed Saudi ASS for the oil, but he did that so the American people wouldn't have to.

And finally, here my STRICTLY opinion part of the debate.
Myth: Bush is a divider, not a uniter.
Truth: Bush didn't divide the nation, he did everything short of directly kissing ass to bring this country together against our common enemies. However, the liberal media began tearing him down before he even took the office. Now, what about the war? He divided the world by not negotiating with the U.N. for help. HA!! The U.N.? These are the people who impose sanctions on dictators which do nothing but allow them to continue bleeding their own people dry. These are the people who turn there backs when their own members break the sanctions for their own benefit (>France<). They all followed france's lead and turned their backs on us, then, in typical fashion, tried to weasel their way into Iraq after we had done all the hard work, so their companies could reap the benefits. SCREW THE U.N.!!!

Now, all of this can be found in the reports from the Senate intelligence committee and the 911 commission. If you want to dispute my claims, read the reports first. If you don't and you still refuse to admit the truth, you're just being a silly, stubborn liberal.

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Re: Dear Catbert

I would like to point out that I posted that on August 4th. It's an old conversation and I think it speaks for itself, so I won't be adding anything to it.  That being said, I'd like to take this time to ponder why mold felt the need to post this here, as it was intended for the other board....

Since returning here, Cat and I have had a few civil conversations and debates.  My guess would be that mold saw this and decided that it simply would not due.  As we all know, mold would rather get into an argument than a civil debate.  While I tend to share this view, I have rather enjoyed my conversations with Cat.  From what I've learned about mold, he seems to be the kind of person who can't stand the thought that he could ever be wrong, and insists on resorting to petty attacks when he is called on it.

Now, this brings us to this particular post.  It's rather obvious to me that mold, believing that he and I are "more alike than I will admit," has a hard time accepting that I can have civil debates with others; that I can converse and joke around with someone without letting anything get personal.  My guess is because admiting this would be akin to admiting that he is more often than not the catalist which causes so many of our debates to degenerate.

Of course, this is merely an opinion...  though it's still rather disapointing.

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Re: Dear Catbert

I don't think I directly state any of that in my why Bush doesn't deserve to be re-elected thread other than maybe he didn't win the election.

I stand by my previous post.

On the note of the election, I'd like to retract any notion I may have left that Bush "stole the election".  There was clearly a lot of monkeying around there, however.  I do believe Katherine Harris illegally certified the results and she probably shouldn't have been a campaign worker for Bush and a government official (even though it is legal, it is just flat out sleazy and a conflict of interest in the most serious sense) and that overall a full statewide recount was blocked by the SCOTUS.  Frankly I don't like the idea of the federal court system telling a state how to run its elections and I really doubt the framers would have either.  In that sense, Bush is not exactly a legitimate President in my view and furthermore he was quite definitely not democratically elected.

To briefly reply to blaming 9/11 on Bush: I didn't.  He didn't do much to prevent it though, but I am very sure he could have done more.  The fact is that he did ignore the PDB and that there were no meetings of his counter-terrorism cabinet.  Bush before 9/11 didn't do what Clinton did before the millenium strikes.  There are a few interesting books on the subject.  Actually, the warnings are briefly mentioned in the Woodward book and you get the idea that the administration was indeed focused a lot more on Iraq.

About Iraq, I want to be brief since I've already said so much.  Bush said there were physical weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.  He said this many times.  So did members of his cabinet.  It was quite literally the reason for war.  WMD, after all threatened our national security.  WMD proved Saddam was in serious violation of the UN resolution(s).   

The problem is we didn't find any.  Capability to produce weapons and having weapons are two different things.  There is not a great deal of technology required to make crude biological and chemical weaponry.  As far as I know, it is also unknown that he had the components or the clear intention of resuming these.  It is unclear if inspections wouldn't have worked.  Frankly, I'd prefer the UN inspectors go in and find some infrastructure, minor weapons left over and remove them as needed.  Oh wait, they were doing that before W rushed to his needless pre-emptive war on false premises.  My bad.

Terrorists in Iraq.  Well, thats an interesting one to debate.  Terrorists in Iraq before or after the war isn't surprising.  That doesn't link the Iraqi government to them anymore than the terrorists here before 9/11 would have implicated Bush and the government.  It doesn't mean they were working together, basically.  I find it unlikely at best, given their history.

As far as Al-qaeda specifically goes, the only accusations I am familiar with are:

1) A debunked report that high level Iraqi government officials met with Zarqawi(sp?) in Prague.

2) A 'terror training camp' in Northern Kurdish Iraq, well out of the Kurdish rebel authority or Saddam's jurisdiction.  Saddam had it outlawed as a group.  I also care to note it is highly probable some terror cells operate here in America without any knowledge of the government, and as such it doesn't prove any connection for sure.

3) Al-qaeda wanted an exploratory meeting with Saddam's government.  To my knowledge, the Iraqi government never replied.

Saddam was a socialist-style dictator that tried to remove religion from government as much as he could.  Osama is/was more of a local folkhero that capitalizes not off fear particularly but off anger, hatred and religious affiliations of people in the Middle East.  He is of course a religious fundamentalist and a force of disorder.  They didn't have much in common.

Saddam never funded Al-qaeda that I heard of, but suicide bombers in Palestine.  I'll say what no elected official in this country will say during an election year: Israel can fuck off and go defend itself, or fall completely.

I'm not against Judaism or anything like that, but I frankly don't care if Israel's government is gutted eventually in this stupid war.  The same for the Palestinian/'terrorist" side too.

The Iraq war hasn't united anyone, infact I am relatively sure it has played into dividing people more... if anything.  It might have at first, but any war would do that.

Oh well, that was supposed to not be a rant, guess that was a mission failed.

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Re: Dear Catbert

I would like to point out that I posted that on August 4th. It's an old conversation and I think it speaks for itself, so I won't be adding anything to it.  That being said, I'd like to take this time to ponder why mold felt the need to post this here, as it was intended for the other board....

Since returning here, Cat and I have had a few civil conversations and debates.  My guess would be that mold saw this and decided that it simply would not due.  As we all know, mold would rather get into an argument than a civil debate.  While I tend to share this view, I have rather enjoyed my conversations with Cat.  From what I've learned about mold, he seems to be the kind of person who can't stand the thought that he could ever be wrong, and insists on resorting to petty attacks when he is called on it.

Now, this brings us to this particular post.  It's rather obvious to me that mold, believing that he and I are "more alike than I will admit," has a hard time accepting that I can have civil debates with others; that I can converse and joke around with someone without letting anything get personal.  My guess is because admiting this would be akin to admiting that he is more often than not the catalist which causes so many of our debates to degenerate.

Of course, this is merely an opinion...  though it's still rather disapointing.

I disagree with you entirely on this one Brim. I think Mold just wanted to get a good debate started again since he doesn't have access to the new board yet and he gets bored here without his arch-enemy posting. big_smile But seriously I see nothing wrong with what Mold did, and I am sure he wanted to here Catbert's side of what you said as well.(Not about this but the debate).

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

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Re: Dear Catbert

More personal attacks from Brimmy  roll  It doesn't get to me anymore . . .

Anyhow, I just wanted Cat to able to defend himself, since it started out as (somewhat of) an attack on him. If people were posting on other boards that I could not access, stating my name, and telling other people how wrong I was, I would want someone to inform me. I would do the same for you, Brimstone.

Also, it interests me greatly that you can sit here and talk about how I just like to argue and can't have a civil debate (which is extrememly random and has nothing to do with this topic) yet list several paragraphs, burning me on various things.

Anyway, sorry it upseted you so much, but oh-frickin-well.

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Re: Dear Catbert

I found the following on the "other board", which I cannot post on. I thought it fair for you to be able to defend yourself, if you choose not to, I will for you.

Mind you, this is all I said . . .

Jesus Christ . . .

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Re: Dear Catbert

Anyhow, I just wanted Cat to able to defend himself, since it started out as (somewhat of) an attack on him.

It wasn't an attack on Cat.  It was an attack on the distinct lack of conservative arguments on this board.  Cat was merely a prominent voice of the liberal side of the argument, and made for a good example.  If you had read the rest of the debate, it would have been abundantly clear.  With that in mind...

I thought it fair for you to be able to defend yourself, if you choose not to, I will for you.

Now, this shows that he did not post this looking for a debate, but rather a fight.  A debate could have ensued without taking the initial statement out of context and simply posting the arguments.  Now, if he had read the entire debate (of which Goth debated the other side of) he would have known that the debate had concluded, making the posting of my views here inconsequential.

Now, if he had read the entire thing and still felt as though I was attacking Cat, the right thing to do would have been to ask me personally for an explainaion first.  Instead he posted it here, forcing me to "defend" my statements to this board.  He was looking to start a fight, nothing more.

Quite frankly, it was underhanded, tactless, and showed nothing more than a need to start trouble, which prompted my initial response.  And yes, my statements in the initial response where (in part) a personal attack on mold.  I feel that I was done an injustice by him, from what I have already explained, and that the response was warranted.  He wanted a fight, I'm more than willing to give him one.

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Re: Dear Catbert

*sigh*

I posted for simply reasons.

I like political debates, and wanted to see another. And yes I felt since Catbert seemed to be the spark to all of this, he should have some say in it. And I made the remark about "defense" because I was more than happy to get into a political debate myself. One on my intentions, morals, and motives is a different story.

Bu, unfortunately, that is what you have turned, or are trying to turn this into.

You can be a real asshole, and a bully Brim. You really can be. Leave me alone.

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Re: Dear Catbert

You can be a real asshole, and a bully Brim. You really can be. Leave me alone.

Like hell I will.  You started this, and now you want me to stop?
You said you posted this so that Cat could defend himself.  Then, you said that you would defend him, if he chose not to.  That has nothing to do with politics, that's personal.  And if you wanted a debate, why didn't you post your own views on the arguments?  You made this personal, and now you have the nerve to call me an "asshole" and a "bully" for calling you on it and defending myself?

You want to fight with me?  Fine.  Then bring the fight to ME.  Don't try to throw other people in the middle of it because you can't fight your battles.  I didn't start this, but I'll be damned if I don't see it through.

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Re: Dear Catbert

We need to get back to talking about real issues here anyways like whether Kerry exaggerated his Vietnam record, lied about being in Cambodia, what he has flip flopped on, why he is an ultra-liberal and other pertinent issues George W. Bush can raise to stop talking about those pesky wedge issues Democrats like to raise like Iraq or the economy.

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Re: Dear Catbert

Like hell I will.  You started this, and now you want me to stop?

I started this topic. You started personal attacks.

You said you posted this so that Cat could defend himself. Then, you said that you would defend him, if he chose not to. That has nothing to do with politics, that's personal.

It is personal. But not against you, like you seem to take it. But rather for Cat. I would have done the same thing for you. If anyone made the thread you did on the other board, I would have taken it here. You seem to think this is about me and you, and it isn't, or at least wasn't.

And if you wanted a debate, why didn't you post your own views on the arguments?

Because like I said, I wanted Cat to be able to defend himself, because it seemed that the post was in response to Cat's.

You made this personal, and now you have the nerve to call me an "asshole" and a "bully" for calling you on it and defending myself?

Defending yourself? Give me a fucking break . . .

You want to fight with me? Fine.

Whoa, slow down there, slugger. I don't know where you get these ideas.

Then bring the fight to ME. Don't try to throw other people in the middle of it because you can't fight your battles.

I don't understand what you're even talking about. How was this my battle when I made this thread?

I didn't start this, but I'll be damned if I don't see it through.

roll

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Re: Dear Catbert

If I try to read all of this I'm going to need to contact Rush and see where he got all that Oxycontin.

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Re: Dear Catbert

big_smile

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Re: Dear Catbert

I got to thinking, Rush could actually start his own focus group of neo-conservatives.

I think the only name that would fit would be Oxycons or something to that effect.

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Re: Dear Catbert

Err. . hah. Yeah, I showed the introduction to Bill through AIM one day, because no one the board except for Gothic was standing up to Brim, so I thought i'd let Bill what was going on in other places smile


i r not p0litkal smaurt enuf sad

[img]http://www.geocities.com/o0o0ender0o0o/haxor.jpg[/img]

"And ye shall learn the truth, and the truth will make you free." (John 8:32)

</bush>

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Re: Dear Catbert

Thats right...I stand up to the evil Brim, in order to protect all those who cannot defend themselves against his conservative regime. big_smile Go me!

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

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Re: Dear Catbert

I'm actually surprised that I didn't see this coming from you, mold. 

Alright.  Let's assume that you really had no intention to start a fight.  Then why did you post it here, with my name on it?  If you had a problem with me, why didn't you take it up with me?

Typical.

Thats right...I stand up to the evil Brim, in order to protect all those who cannot defend themselves against his conservative regime.  Go me!

Hehe...  That's a good one, considering that I was the only conservative posting on the other board since it came back, and you were (for a while) the only liberal.  We're each our own 1-man regimes. wink

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Re: Dear Catbert

Alright.  Let's assume that you really had no intention to start a fight.  Then why did you post it here, with my name on it?  If you had a problem with me, why didn't you take it up with me?

Unless your name is Catbert, I don't know what you are reffering to. I quoted you, get over it, you said it, if you are that ashamed of what you posted, or were trying to hide it that badly, I'm sorry, but that is not my problem, or of my concern. And I am not accusing you of either.

I never said I had a problem with you, because I didn't.  I don't know where you get these ideas.  You aren't making any sense.